The Crystal Programming Language Forum

Proposal to use neutral language

Is there anything safe from the cultural marxist communists anymore?

Words have context. None of which have any context in racism. The origin of the word blacklist for example never had anything to do with black people or even skin color at all. Master /slave is the only one I can see having a decent argument. But, it’s describing a relationship. The intention has nothing to do with racism (even though black and brown people arent the only ones to ever be enslaved either).

1984 newspeak.

If technical terms bother you this much, you probably need to see a shrink.

You use this phrase as a pejorative but I assure you that having empathy is actually a good thing.

Words do have context — you’re absolutely correct there and that’s actually the entire point. They have way more context than the person saying/writing them intends.

Common usage carries a lot more weight than the original intent. The creator of the GIF pronounces it with a soft “g” and the creator of the Hitachi Magic Wand said it was for sore shoulders but common usage of both has nothing to do with the origin. In the same way, “blacklist” and “whitelist” aren’t thought of the same way as when the terms were coined. Society is very different and sometimes our communication needs to be updated along with it.

Communication is multi-faceted and to expect that one person’s intent carries more weight than a large subset of the world’s population’s psychological safety is neither realistic nor respectful.

They’ve always been the primary groups to be enslaved and that continues to this day at least in 2 of the 3 countries I’ve lived in as the majority of prison populations are black and brown folks while the countries are majority white.

Your ableism is showing.

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You use this phrase as a pejorative but I assure you that having empathy is actually a good thing.

It has nothing to do with empathy. It’s all about subversion.

In the same way, “blacklist” and “whitelist” aren’t thought of the same way as when the terms were coined. Society is very different and sometimes our communication needs to be updated along with it.

No, but the words have never had any racial connotations in the first place. So, I’m not really seeing your point here. It’s no coincidence that this is all happening now either.

If it was such a major problem, I would assume you’d have a lot more consensus on the issue by minority people. The city I grew up in is 90% black. I still have yet to meet one that is offended by the usage of these words.

They’ve always been the primary groups to be enslaved and that continues to this day at least in 2 of the 3 countries I’ve lived in as the majority of prison populations are black and brown folks while the countries are majority white.

Well, the country I’m from that group commits over 50% of the violent crimes. So, it’s no surprise that they’re over represented in the prison system. Though, I do agree that exploiting prisoners is bad. The US prison system needs to be majorly reformed. Decriminalization of drugs would be a good start.

The primary group is pretty debatable there. More recently sure. But, slaves historically were captured soldiers from wars.

Note: I’m not against changing some words if they were truly harmful. But, they aren’t. They were never meant to be. Tech is probably one of the most inclusive and welcoming professional industries in the world. Minus the bits of gatekeeping. Which has been skill, I’ve worked with tons of random people online. Never once wondered or cared what their race or gender was. It’s a completely made up issue.

Oh look, my post was removed. Can’t have dissenting opinions now can we?

Your ableism is showing.
Sorry, I forget some people are perpetually offended and that jokes and sarcasm cannot be tolerated.

But what’s the harm of changing a single occurrence of “ip whitelisting” to “ip filtering” in the code base?

If, say, it was about changing the project name from Rubocop to something else, where that change doesn’t make sense and it’s a huge effort, breaking everyone’s workflow, then I can understand opposition to that (I’m opposed to that). But if it’s just a few words in some doc comments?

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As Ary says, where’s the harm? Where does it harm you? You as in anybody spending time to argue against this.

If these simple and humble changes agitate you enough to invest so much time into arguing against them, maybe consider spending some time on reflecting where this agitation comes from. How does this negatively impact you personally or professionally? Is there any fear this triggers in you? Can you name such a fear? Is it justified? Please don’t answer these questions aloud, but only to yourself :) It’s always easy to attribute these feelings to “somebody else”, categorize those ideas into certain buckets and then just act on premade opinions around these buckets. The concept that makes many people act this way is called othering and rarely spawns from fully rational thought in my experience :) It’s something we all have in us and can only counteract with being conscious about it.

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@jhass @asterite Because it has nothing to do with harm or empathy. It’s not one occurance either. Do you know how many books are written with these terms that cant be changed? It’s going to cause confusion.

But, regardless, it has nothing to do with the inclusivity or harm anyways. It’s straight from the communist manifesto. Read the literature on communist movements. This is where it starts. Then it never stops. This isn’t the first time this stuff has happened. Like I said before, if it was genuine and there was true malice behind the phrasings or words, I’d be all for changing it.

I’m pretty damn liberal on most things. I support universal healthcare and paid tuition to anyone who wants to attend university. Although, I will never vote for a Democrat again after seeing them belittle the police, allow riots, and kowtow to the extreme left that want to do the newspeak and communist overthrow. I’m sick of it. And I’m sick of them supporting people that want to subvert the culture and destroy history and vandalize my countries cities.

Look at Trudeau in Canada. “Mankind” offends people now. So, he uses “peoplekind”. Really? Is our society and way of life truly this comfortable for some people that this is what they put their weight behind? It’s absolutely ridiculous.

It’s like the 50000 genders and the countries where they compel you to call someone the gender they identify with, even if it has no root in reality, at the barrel of a gun. Don’t like it bigot, have fun in a cage.

I’d have no problem with changing language if it were genuinely offensive. But, it isn’t. It was never meant to be and never will be. It’s about sticking the cultural marxism tentacles into every single aspect of society as possible.

Still have yet to meet a single “person of color” (how that term isnt derogatory, idk) who is genuinely hurt or turned away by this language. I grew up dirt poor in a 90%+ minority city. All I’ve seen is the typical far-left middle-upper class white kids trying to speak for minorities like they always do. Same with their bigotry of low expectations. It’s disgusting and they should be ashamed of themselves.

Good ol’ KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov called all of this 40 years ago.

Do you honestly expect us to believe that people literally put guns to your head or put you in jail if you misgender someone? Seriously? You created an account on this forum just to spread this garbage?

And yeah, using the correct pronouns for someone is the respectful thing to do.

You don’t get to determine what offends someone else. You can choose not to believe it’s offensive to them, but just because you don’t find something offensive doesn’t mean it isn’t.

Yeah, jokes about mental health are pretty messed up. I can’t believe I have to say this.

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If you don’t like “peoplekind”, maybe we should just call it “womankind” instead for a couple millenia?
That seems only fair to let the other half of humanity be the namesake of it for as long as men were it.

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Do you honestly expect us to believe that people literally put guns to your head or put you in jail if you misgender someone? Seriously? You created an account on this forum just to spread this garbage?

And yeah, using the correct pronouns for someone is the respectful thing to do.

LMAO! Imagine being so pompous and “holier than thou,” that you have absolutely no clue of the laws surrounding things you advocate for.

Yes, I do honestly expect you to believe it. Because it’s absolutely true.

Happens more often than you think. Especially in the UK and Canada. The US is the only country in the world with laws PROTECTING the FREEDOM of speech. So, yes you can and do get arrested in other countries for stuff like this.

There’s far more examples than this one. You can DYOR since you were obviously too lazy to type 5 words into Google before making your ever-so knowledgeable statement.

Perhaps you should become more educated on these things before you form an opinion. It might make you look less stupid next time.

You don’t get to determine what offends someone else. You can choose not to believe it’s offensive to them, but just because you don’t find something offensive doesn’t mean it isn’t.

I find these sentences you just posted to be utterly offensive. Take it down NOW!

Goes back to what I originally said. Context and intent behind the words. If there is no implied malice, then the offended people are whining about something that doesn’t exist. If the words were so offensive you’d think there would be a lot more consensus on this issue.

Again, I still have yet to see any substantial portion of a minority group offended by these words. It’s just like the Washington Redskins football team. You have Chiefs of tribes coming out and saying they actually like the name. But, leave it up to the perpetually offended middle/upper-class white liberals to tell the minorities and everyone else what should be offensive to them.

You’re the language police and it’s utter pathetic.

Yeah, jokes about mental health are pretty messed up. I can’t believe I have to say this.

Sorry, I forget your skin is paper-thin. I actually suffer from 2 mental illnesses and find jokes about mine particularly funny. Have fun living your life with that attitude. You sound like a really fun person to be around.

You created an account on this forum just to spread this garbage?

What? I’m a software engineer. I didn’t start this thread. Do you make any sense at all? And my “garbage” is logically sound. This 1984 newspeak isn’t. Absolutely 0 consistency. 0 understanding of words and language. It’s childs play, and I’m tired of it. Sorry that I’m intruding on your tyranny parade.

If you don’t like “peoplekind”, maybe we should just call it “womankind” instead for a couple millenia?
That seems only fair to let the other half of humanity be the namesake of it for as long as men were it.

Good thing we have people like you that are truly making progress. Maybe when the use of the word human is eliminated we will finally figure out how to harness nuclear fission energy and provide it freely to all. Thank you for your service.

Like the poster before you, you completely lack any substantial knowledge on the things you’re so offended about.

Do the word woMAN and feMALE offend you as well? The root word is the essence of all evil or something? I don’t get it. You’re literally offended by nothing. I would hate to see your mental state if you spoke an actual gendered language lol.

I don’t exactly get how the word “Humankind” could possibly be offensive? You have not elaborated on how it is so at all.

mid-15c., humain, humaigne, “human,” from Old French humain, umain (adj.) “of or belonging to man” (12c.), from Latin humanus “of man, human,” also “humane, philanthropic, kind, gentle, polite; learned, refined, civilized.” This is in part from PIE *(dh)ghomon-, literally “earthling, earthly being,” as opposed to the gods (from root *dhghem- “earth”), but there is no settled explanation of the sound changes involved. Compare Hebrew adam “man,” from adamah “ground.” Cognate with Old Lithuanian žmuo (accusative žmuni) “man, male person.”

Homo means ‘man’ in Latin, and has the corresponding adjective humanus, whence English ‘human,’ through French.

If you like the nitty gritty, OED gives

Etymology: < Anglo-Norman humeigne (feminine), humane (feminine), Anglo-Norman and Middle French humain, humayn (French humain ) of or belonging to people (as opposed either to animals or to God) (1119 in Anglo-Norman), having human nature or characteristics (c1170), composed of people (c1174), benevolent (c1175), having people (as opposed to God) as its subject (1552 in letres humaines : compare humane letters n. at humane adj. Special uses) and its etymon classical Latin hūmānus of or belonging to people (as opposed either to animals or to divine beings), characteristic of people, civilized, cultured, cultivated, kindly, considerate, merciful, indulgent < the same base as homin- , homō homo n.1 + -ānus -an suffix, although the origin of the vocalism is unclear. Compare Old Occitan uman , Catalan humà (14th cent.), Spanish humano (c1200), Portuguese humano (13th cent.), Italian umano (13th cent.). With use as noun compare classical Latin hūmānus human being, hūmānum that which is human (uses as noun of masculine and neuter respectively of hūmānus , adjective), French humain human being (1340 in Middle French, usually in plural), human nature (a1630). Compare humane adj.

Human is certainly not derived from ‘Om,’ and I find no sources suggesting that they are cognate.

Lewis & Short (Latin dictionary) entry on homo gives

I have a proposal too. How about to make some years specific to countries and culture? For example, next year we can dedicate to Russian culture, because using only latin-language it’s… kinda offensive against other languages, don’t you think so? So, we will use cyrillic symbols, all class names, etc, should reflect russian culture.

I hope you will consider my proposal. I’m really glad that the meaning of the project is not about functionality, rationality, but to promote culture differences.

I’m ready to listen to feedback, and I hope you support me, guys.

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Можно начать уже сегодня :upside_down_face:

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One of those was targeted harassment on social media and the other was to keep a parent from gaslighting their child. Neither were arrested for simply misgendering someone. My point stands.

Actually, I’m just tired of the stigma of mental illness. And so are a lot of other people.

Many people living with mental illness actually have thick skin, but simply have to deal with more than a typical person. The fact that you can joke about mental illness just means it doesn’t affect you the same way — this isn’t an indication that you’re any better than anyone else who lives with mental illness, it simply means that other people’s struggles run deeper than yours do.

Your very first post to this forum was to hyperbolize about how nothing is “safe from the cultural marxist communists”. Discourse literally tells us that.

This indicates that it’s more important to you to complain about people trying to be inclusive than to talk about software development.

It’s always the people who complain about others being “thin-skinned” that also label empathy as “tyranny”. Always. Such an odd pattern of behavior.

It’s clear you’re not going to engage in any good-faith conversation about this. And you’ve violated the code of conduct several times in this thread alone. I hope the core team does something about that.

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I don’t speak Russian but I grabbed a couple words from @vladfaust’s post and it looks like it works in Crystal, so you’re probably free to do exactly that in your apps.

class Mожно
end
pp начать: Mожно.new
# => {"начать": #<Mожно:0x1056a2860>}

If anything doesn’t work, feel free to open an issue on the GitHub repo.

There are also plenty of programming languages that are written in non-English languages, including ones with non-Latin alphabets. And that’s pretty awesome, tbh.

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Just wanted to say, I officially have added more female and minority developers myself to this project than this proposal ever will. I have been spending my time teaching my girlfriend Crystal, a task which actually does something useful for this project, rather than waste time whining about words.

Suggestion: Instead of wasting time on a proposal like this, how about you guys go out and get minority and female developers by putting in some actual elbow grease. Maybe actually teach somebody to program, because I promise you, no one is going to give a crap if we use one word over another. Go out and do something real with your time that actually will move the needle on misogyny and racism.

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The only people whining in this thread has been from those against using more inclusive language.

Let’s imagine for a moment a scenario in which you’re correct — that nobody actually cares or talks publicly about feeling excluded from a lot of communities. What would be the catalyst for this conversation? What would’ve sparked someone to create this thread?

If you don’t hear/read those conversations, it might be worth expanding on the content you consume to include more people from marginalized groups because I see it literally all the time. I assure you that this conversation didn’t materialize from nothing.

And ultimately, I’ll echo the question that Crystal core team members have asked several times (both in this thread and on PRs to the repo) and literally zero people have answered: what is the harm in using more inclusive words?

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The problem is that they are not “more inclusive”. It’s a joke.

A desire to enforce ideological and moral purity. To force others to kiss the papal ring of social justice, publicly confess their sins and atone for them.

What I see literally all the time is people conjuring the ghost of grievances past to demand that others do as they say.
Marginalisation has already been addressed and what’s left is feigned martyrdom, ever-moving goalposts and postmodern wordplay.

The tacit admission that there’s exclusion going on here.

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A wise mentor once told me, “you can choose your words, but you can’t choose your meaning.”

Once, many years ago, a coworker told me over beers that he was sometimes a little uncomfortable talking about database slaves, because it always reminded him of the numbers tattooed on his grandparents arms.

That day, I stopped using the word, and chose other synonyms. As I was the most senior technical lead, others eventually followed my example, and all our internal docs were changed within about 6 months as I made updates.

No one ever noticed. I didn’t get any thanks from anyone, and no one said “why did you change the internal runbooks and architecture documentation?” If my friend noticed, he never said anything. But I do hope that my friend had fewer reasons to be distracted by something unrelated to the topic at hand. It was quite literally the least I could do–it cost me nothing but a few seconds here and there.

Personally, I try to choose my words so that my expected audience hears the meaning that I intend. When meanings change over time, I adapt. I think that’s really the fundamental point of communication, to be understood, not to understand myself.

Paul

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Regarding this file, the :white symbol is ranked above :black. Also, :white is nil, but :black has a value?

There is also a plethora of master terminology littered across the repo: https://github.com/crystal-lang/crystal/search?q=master&unscoped_q=master. And according to this article on CNN, they have racist connotations. My solution is to change these to main or primary.

And lastly, the Parent and Child naming https://github.com/crystal-lang/crystal/blob/1a85151e9a3a0df3e5e1d8f4a9d9d31fc861605d/spec/compiler/semantic/abstract_def_spec.cr#L341 here should be changed as well. Not everyone is lucky enough to inherent a parent (troublesome waters of adoption). Godot is on board with this, and I hope Crystal will be as well.

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