I grew up in the foster system because of my parents and their drug addictions. I find the word “crystal” incredibly triggering because of it’s relation to the slang for meth. Can we change the name of the project to something less triggering for me like the word “potato”. Please accept my victim points as payment, thank you.
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@girng @sol.vin If you think “victim points”, emotional leverage, or anything like that are what these efforts are all about, you’ve completely missed the point.
You clearly feel aggrieved at being asked to be nicer (inb4 “but I’m asking you to use inclusive language” under the pretense that you’re being in any way genuine in these troll posts), and you’re responding with strawman caricatures of complaints from people who are looking for an inclusive community. Pretty disgusting move, tbh.
@Exilor You still find that behavior inclusive?
What behaviour are you referring to? The latest replies of the two users you mentioned?
If so, inclusive of who?
This is not about “being nicer”. whitelist/blacklist as terminology is not a problem, in the same way that having a “Master bedroom” in a house is not racist or non-inclusive. People often choose to be offended, should we change every little stupid detail for them? My point is simple, these changes not only disrupt workflow, but they will not do anything to change anything related to the reasons people are saying we should do this for. Removing the term whitelist or blacklist or whatever is not going to move the needle on anything, and it certainly won’t bring in more developers. Why? Because it’s non-inclusive from the get-go. Telling people they cannot use words that have no racist connotation is non-inclusive. It makes us look like d-bags with nothing better to do than whine about some sort of invisible diversity quota, something most open-source projects tend to have settled by their very nature of being open. It should also be said that Crystal has done a really good job of fostering developer communities across the globe, that should already be recognized.
I’m all for bringing in new developers, I’d love to see this language grow, but pinning our hopes on this, or even spending time on it is a waste, and honestly will only serve to confuse new developers with untested, relatively unknown jargon for things that have been described in an accurate fashion for decades.
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Whose workflow, how? There was not a single practical problem demonstrated so far.
Your premises (there are two in this sentence, really) that aren’t shared by any person I know that spend any time at all on reflecting on the topic.
The only time wasted is this discussion triggered by the pushback of people like you. The actual changes we did took maybe 10 minutes, if at all. So another wrong premise of you. And also a fallacy, assuming that there’s some fixed budget of time spend on Crystal and every minute spend is subtracted from it. That’s not how any work outside factory work works.
Especially with the whitelist/blacklist terms as an example, I found alternative terms they’re replaced with to be much more descriptive of the domain. Assuming everybody knows the original terms is quite anglo-centric. So another statement by you without any backing.
See a trend?
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The word “Crystal” is incredibly non-inclusive as it reminds me of drugs and sad things. Let’s consider changing the name to something more inclusive. I also don’t like the word “def” that word reminds me of the word “defense” which is incredibly anglo-centric, let’s consider changing that too. Actually a lot of english words were made by anglo-centric societies, let’s make sure we use only Chinese when we type documentation, as we wouldn’t want to cater to non-inclusive people. The plus sign looks like a cross, that could be very offensive to the wrong religion, we should make sure that goes away too.
I also noticed on your repos on Github you use the master branch, how not 2020 of you. Don’t you know Github directly contributes to slavery with it’s branch names. You also promote slavery in your own repos by using the word “master”. This is especially a problem with your codebase which has over 13 instances of the word “whitelist”, and 7 instances of the word “blacklist”. Why the difference in the number of times mentioned? Do you have some kind of hidden bias we don’t know about? All this time, I didn’t realize I was promoting racism simply by using your tool. And don’t even get me started about this one where you actually link the two dreaded words, master and slave, effectively promoting racism and undoing years of civil rights work. I am truly disgusted and offended because, I know you can be the pillar and beacon of inclusiveness you work so hard to tout.
Erasing words doesn’t change anything, and regardless of your contributions to Crystal you are a fool to think otherwise.
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Cherry-picking now, yeah? Great.
We all are allowed to learn I think ;)
You may notice for repos I actively work on alone, I already did the migration of the default branch name. For the rest I’m waiting for the tools Github announced at https://github.com/github/renaming.
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Not cherry-picking merely making a point.
I see you live in Berlin, so you probably don’t know a lot about American racism, but I do. I watch on the livestreams every night as police beat my fellow countrymen like they are diseased dogs who need to be put out. I’ve watched them hold down and kill enough black people in just the span of just a couple years to fill morgues. I’ve watched them time and time again escalate, holding minority families hostage while they steal their stuff. I’ve watched them fire “non-lethal” rounds at protesters, putting a veteran in a life-threatening state, when I was at Occupy Oakland. You’ll never know what it’s like to walk down the street with your Asian girlfriend to have someone lean out their car and yell “white power” at you, I do. You want to talk about racism we need to fix, that’s the place to start.
Words like whitelist and blacklist are non-items, they don’t even move the needle on racism, so let’s stop pretending that they do. This seems to me more of an attempt to erase the past or virtue signal rather than it is any honest or earnest attempt to stop racism in any way, and at it’s worst is just extremely condescending. Erasing words will not change anything, especially if those words don’t have “non-inclusive” meanings, like whitelist and blacklist.
There’s quite some areas in Germany, and yes, Berlin, where comparable things happen. Yes our police generally is better trained than the US one, but no less structurally racist. I could list countless examples, but why.
Black and white as terms exist longer than race theory (just like skin color based discrimination does) and alike longer than race theory, the connotation of white is light, benevolence, good and the one of black is darkness, malice, bad. Early Christianity and Christianity up to today is just one prime example of these usages and connotations. Race theory, like so many other discriminatory concepts, just made use of what people already believed and tried to find “reason” for those believes.
The entire argument of anybody wanting to “erase” words or history is a big straw-man. No one ever said that, no one ever wanted it. The point is to eradicate the casual and unreflected use of these terms, which keeps those structural racisms, those that form the believes of people, subconsciously so, and result in radicalization like you described yourself. It seems weird to get rid of these terms because they feel so “normal”, and that’s exactly the point that the concept of structural racism making, it’s looking at the “normal” things and questions their origins and inherent bias. The goal here is not to “erase” but to educate people on the origins and connotations of such terminology and put them only into the context they deserve, history.
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Especially with the whitelist/blacklist terms as an example, I found alternative terms they’re replaced with to be much more descriptive of the domain. Assuming everybody knows the original terms is quite anglo-centric. So another statement by you without any backing.
Anglo-centric terms, in an anglo-centric culture and country it was developed in. Color me surprised. Do arab-centric things developed in the arab world bother you too? How about african? Or is it only the euro/white ones?
This board is in English. As is the entirety of the Crystal language. That’s pretty anglo-centric if you ask me. Can we put this on the list of things to consider changing?
The entire argument of anybody wanting to “erase” words or history is a big straw-man. No one ever said that, no one ever wanted it. The point is to eradicate the casual and unreflected use of these terms, which keeps those structural racisms, those that form the believes of people, subconsciously so, and result in radicalization like you described yourself. It seems weird to get rid of these terms because they feel so “normal”, and that’s exactly the point that the concept of structural racism making, it’s looking at the “normal” things and questions their origins and inherent bias. The goal here is not to “erase” but to educate people on the origins and connotations of such terminology and put them only into the context they deserve, history.
The irony here is that social justice is your christianity that you describe in the previous paragraph.
The terms being anglo-centric wasn’t what he was talking about Jonne was talking about. Try reading it again. You’ll get it next time. I believe in you, buddy.
huh?
Especially with the whitelist/blacklist terms as an example, I found alternative terms they’re replaced with to be much more descriptive of the domain. Assuming everybody knows the original terms is quite anglo-centric. So another statement by you without any backing.
Read just a little bit closer. If you’re having trouble understanding, click the spoiler: It’s the assumption that everyone knows the original terms that is anglo-centric, not the terms themselves.
Also, to clarify, the fact that programming languages primarily use English keywords isn’t a bad thing for the same reason that music notation primarily being written in Italian isn’t a bad thing. But if an Italian musician assumed I understood the history behind all of the words, that might be a pretty poor assumption, right?
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Sure, it would be a poor assumption unless you were bent on changing them or triggered by them. In which case I would hope you’d know the history.
Some food for thought re: Social Justice Warriors from Miles Mathis - http://mileswmathis.com/sjw.pdf
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Enough. Please close this topic.
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No please don’t shut this down, I really enjoy listening to people virtue signal how much better they are than everyone else because they are “ending racism” by not using the word “whitelist” 
Such paragons of virtue.
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This is an obvious strawman. Nobody made any claims of this. The whole point of this thread was to see if there was anything else we could do to make people feel welcome. You came in and pissed all over something good that someone was trying to do. Way to go. 
This is an obvious strawman. Nobody made any claims of this.
Except that’s not true and you know it. Attempting to police non-racist language is the problem and it’s a problem that inevitably leads to virtue signalling. If you are so blind to it you can’t see it in this thread I don’t know what to tell you other than “open your eyes”.
The whole point of this thread was to see if there was anything else we could do to make people feel welcome.
No the point of this thread is to waste time discussing whether or not the term “whitelist” should be removed or not allowed because of CoC. The kind of people who would “join” our language simply because we don’t use naughty no-no words like “whitelist”, are also the kind of people who wouldn’t add anything of value. No programmer worth their chops is going to want to spend time coding for us just because we got rid of some “no-no words”. There are a million and one better ideas on how to get minority developers, this isn’t it.
You came in and pissed all over something good that someone was trying to do.
But this isn’t good, this is virtue signalling behavior that has zero effect on the real world and is just used so a couple SJWs can feel good about their hugbox.
If this is such a winning strategy for getting new minority developers, where are they all at in all the OSS projects that have implemented this? I have added more minority developers to this project by just reaching out and offering to teach. How many minority developers has this proposal added so far? 
I’m guessing zero.
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How can you make such a statement? Why do you make it an absolute truth?